H'm, what heroic stories has this person been seeing?

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My reaction:

I have no words to say but I think you guys do.

@Qualeshia12
@J.L.O.
@AMMeyers
@Akje
@alenatenjo
@MatthewJH

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Ah, there is some of that issue going round, yeah…but not every story.

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Certainty not every story! Maybe I’ve got good instincts but I haven’t seen that much in the sort of stuff I like.

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Its more likely to be missed if you can’t sympathize with the villain. But the surefire way to be sure that the villain is set up this way is when the villain is set up something like a political ideology you don’t like or are in opposition of. You are guaranteed to elicit sympathy by the division, and have this happen on the other side of it.

And it happens in everything. Think Starship Troopers: the book wasn’t meant to be propaganda for a totalitarian worldview but it makes totalitarianisms appealing (because it has good points). The movies totally ripped into what was viewed as Republican Jingoism, and made that appealing, unintentionally (again because who wants bug overlords?). (I laugh at that because outside of the Bushes, wars statistically aren’t waged by Republican presidents, but it is VIEWED as their bag. It’s a big part of why I say that 1 side is overtly for it and the other side lies about not being for it, given any random topic.)

Anyway, in trying to understand yet paint “bad is bad”, it’s very easy to make the view reasonable. Its why eugenics is clearly tied to survival of the fittest. It is the end extreme ideology derived from that thought. And because that spectrum of ideology won’t freaking die off, assisted suicide and abortion is just enmeshed in that argument.

People just don’t realize they are juggling a monster if they can’t understand what parts are appealing about a bad worldview.

But all that aside, Vegeta is good to look at, for that. I don’t think he ever truly becomes a good man, but his sole passions in later life are beating Goku (and YAY for the latest movie), and protecting what is his. He still thinks most everyone is pathetic, they’re just his pathetic.

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I don’t watch enough hero shows/movies/games/anime/etc. to know this was a cliché. I did use the “villain has a point” trope in my first book, but in the end he gets his way anyhow. I’ve never seen shows where the heroes are soldiers for the world that is rather than the world that could be. Most heroes I’ve seen are simply maintainers of law and order. They protect innocent people from terrorists, serial killers, kidnappers, etc. while the villains are those who try to harm the innocent. ¯\_(ﭢ)_/¯

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If it was being realistic, they’d more often be the cleanup crew for a world gone bad. lol

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We’re not warrior poets, we’re the enforcers ~ SAS Commander, 6 Days (Iranian embassy siege movie).

I’ve been at the mercy of good men following orders before. Never again ~ Magneto, X-Men: First Class.

The goal of politicians is to last to the end of next week. The goal of the Civil Service is to last to the end of next century ~ Sir Humphrey, Yes Prime Minister (paraphrased).

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The problem is that upholding the status quo in these sorts of stories is more or less a fight for survival. Does it really matter if the villain has a point when that point directly leads to your death?

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Actually, this is a very common issues, especially in super hero related stories. There are plenty of times where the villain is actually justified in their actions but are considered a villain because they go against the “rules” of that world, even if it would make it a better place. As well as this, it’s not uncommon for heroes to actually end up doing even more damage than the villain does. This changes story to story but there are a lot of them

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I think it’s more due to thoughtlessness than any active political statement. All these people keep on wanting “deeper, more thoughtful, sympathetic” villains but they put them in narritives that would better fit a pure evil villain or even a true neutral antagonist.

True neutral antagonists, now that is something I don’t see enough of!

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People want one thing but have no idea how to do it or refuse to put in the work to make their villains appear that way. People often also frown upon when this is done because then they’re going against what a “real” (re: traditional) villain is.

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So you mean to say that they lack the imaginaton or vision to properly execute their ideas?

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More like lack the motivation or willingness

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