I was wrong: a discussion about writing race in fiction

It’s legit.

I’ll give an example right now. We have a bit of an uproar going on because a specific train derailment has become an EPA nightmare, and it can affect the whole watershed of the easternmost Mississippi waterways.

And people are noticing the news reports for

train derailments, so it’s causing an uproar amongst those who don’t trust the government.

Thing is we do about 1K derailments a year, which means our infrastructure is very weak across long tracks. It’s not really that hard to derail a train, so we as a nation have been ignoring infrastructure issues for decades so that the arguemnts of “train wrecks are common” can be used to calm people down a little. Forget that we’ve had 3 seperate EPA level spills during that same time, and that is supposed to be rare.

I’m not even trying to get into the political side of this, just using this to point out that you can ignore things for years, to only be whipped up into a frienzy by sensationalism: either it’s been a serious problem the whole time, or it’s been nothing and we are just being yanked around by our noses. It’s a ready factioning. “You didn’t care this whole time, why now?” vs. “Right doesn’t depend on when I notice it.”

That more shifts it to a here-and-noe problem, more parallel to current issues.

But if you want to trail a here-and-now abduction issue, you follow Ashton Kutcher’s work and how many times he tries to get laws passed that don’t, comparing it to the blatant abuse by the elites that has been exposed. That stuff ain’t easy to read up on.

Also, keeping it “as they cross our territory” really breaks it off from history as that was taking people from other countries.

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Related to this, I do wonder about cultural appropriation. It’s related to racism in fiction, I think. And I remember this video on YouTube talking about some author I never heard of before who took direct inspiration from Maori culture and made it so that it was clearly Maori culture but with a fantasy name.

He was called out for cultural appropriation because of how he represented a culture that already struggles with good representation. Apparently, it was quite bad :sweat_smile:

I think cultural appropriation should be its own thread, to be honest. Who decides what is cultural appropriation? Americans wearing kimono and having fun isn’t cultural appropriation to me. But when they cut the kimono up and call it a dress, then, idk if that’s appropriation, but it does seem disrespectful to the culture.

In fiction, I haven’t seen actual published books do this, but I have read some people’s writing (no one we know here) that decided to give characters “Japanese-like” names and obviously they hadn’t done the research at all. It really irks me seeing that :sweat_smile: I don’t think that’s cultural appropriation, or is it? Not sure. But it’s disrespectful. Personal thought, because I’m half Japanese and a name in Japanese isn’t just random sounds plastered together.

Thank you for bringing up “own voices”. That really confused me when I first saw it. Because suddenly I was seeing so much discussion that only blacks can write about blacks, only lesbians and write about lesbians. But, as you said, if you do your research and you go to the right people to do it and maybe even talk to them, you can write a fictional story that explores racism or other discriminations.

So, I come back to this question: Can you write a story where the MC does not recognize the racism going on around them? The discrimination is described to the reader because the MC comes across those scenes. But the topic of racism is NEVER addressed because that’s not the main concern of the MC and his story. He’s worried about what his family and crush think of him. He’s not worried about what the police are doing to a certain group.

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Yeah, territory. The fantasy world in question has no countries anyway. Trying to keep it general and not get into my own story, but to get in a little bit, it’s near-impossible to even go to Sorcerer territory as a non-magical Human, so it really doesn’t happen often and usually the Human is captured by police and sent off to jail or back to the Human part of the world, and no one hears about it until someone from the inside slips the tale and some people find out about it.

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Which means you could put it as “rumors”, and it might be slander against them, which would cause people to be uncomfortable with bringing it up.

“You have 1 crazy aunt who captured people for study, and all of a sudden it’s everyone has done it!”

Softens that a good bit.

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Often yes, many people become desensitized to systemic racism because it’s such a regular part of their lives. Even so, I think some of the feelings that a character would experience without desensitisation–maybe empathy, or a desire to be just–would remain anyways.

I think by not talking about it, that also sends a kind of message. but I think there is also something to be said about proper characterization. I.e. if a character who has never had to confront outright discrimination head-on, it can often be difficult to process what’s going on: it might sow confusion.

I think there’s merit to talking about the pathos of discrimination–that is to say, the thought processes behind discriminators, bystanders, and those being descriminated against. I think it’s unhelpful in a fictional setting to discuss discrimination in a sort-of “racism is bad” light–to put it a different way, I think presenting discrimination in a PSA format detracts from fiction-writing, and it’s more compelling to talk about the feelings and thoughts surrounding it.

I think if a character witnesses outright discrimination, it’s the writer’s job to confront how that character would respond, and how that contributes to the story. But the character may not act in a morally just way–and it’s the writer’s job to paint as morally unjust.

Tl;dr: A PSA shouldn’t interrupt my storytelling nor my reading. I hope that makes sense lol.

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Yes and no.

Anything can influence someone, but you can’t force someone to do something. If I saw someone with a mullet and wanted to have a mullet myself because they inspired me to do so, that isn’t on them because they had a hairdo I thought was cool. If I cut my hair into a mullet, that’s on me. It’s this thing called free-will; people have control over their own actions. Sure, something can sway their decision, but that isn’t on you. Not as a person, not as an artist. You can’t force someone to do something they don’t want to do… as a writer. If someone ended up stalking and killing a woman, they can’t blame it on the show You. If someone became a cannibalistic serial killer, they can’t blame it on Hannibal Lecter. If someone was a bratty and spoiled rich white girl, they can’t blame it on Sharpay Evans for making them that way. You are in control over your own life, and what you do has nothing to do with some author or filmmaker or character. It’s not your problem that they can’t understand the difference between fiction and real life.

Years ago, I was writing a scene in a book where the main character was harming herself. The book was in first person. My brother, a non-reader, read over my shoulder and then read that scene and got mad. He looked at my wrists to see if there was any cuts and then he told my mom I was writing about killing myself.

Around the same time, I was also into drawing. I drew all sorts of things, but also tried to do various emotions. And both my brother and father thought I was mimicking my own emotions and were concerned, mostly because at the time, we had CPS called on us (we had just moved and weren’t in school, and one of my mom’s co-workers were nosy and saw that we weren’t going to school right away even though I was doing online schooling at the time) and thought they’d be triggered by my drawings.

Not to mention, I know of so many people who are overly religious and don’t watch or read anything fantastical because “magic is witchcraft and witchcraft is the devils’ work.” Like, I’m not worshipping Satan by watching the Hobbit you imbecile. :roll_eyes: Plus, one of my friend’s mom’s thinks you’re worshiping Satan by doing yoga. Should that include all kinds of exercise? And my sister’s boss thinks NASA is also worshiping Satan, too, because they believe that long red line is the Devil’s tongue. :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

You see what I’m saying? People make no sense these days. What you do will make them think or do anything regardless of your actual intentions, regardless of the context, regardless of anything you say or do.

YES. A fantasy can have discrimination and racism within its world. It can also provide a world where it doesn’t exist. But not every story needs to come with a world filled with either or.

Representation is key to everything. As a writer, it is your responsibility to create well-rounded characters that represent said community, to have done research to discuss controversial topics or hard subjects like mental illness and disabilities. Without good representation and effort in your research, you don’t have a great story to tell, and you’ll get hated on because of it.

But I do think that as a writer who has never experienced racism firsthand or certain discrimination, you shouldn’t have main characters that go through it because it isn’t necessarily your story to tell. This doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have a main character who is of those communities, because as a white author, you can make stories about Black or Asian characters, but don’t make their race or tragic backstories part of the premise of the story.

My own series is filled with POC characters and characters within the LGBT+ communities, but I’m not a part of them and I’m not writing a story about racism and discrimination. I’m simply writing about a group of characters going on a revenge journey. The color of their skin, gender, or sexual orientation has nothing to do with it. They’re shown as just… people.

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Wow…you can’t make this shit up, can you?
I knew some religious people were beyond stupid, but this is just depressingly sad.

I really want to live in another dimension where shit makes actual sense.

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I do describe her as being crazy. She’s constantly on the verge of crime. Even the crowd she entertains with the human are kind of morbidly fascinated, but many are disgusted, yet they mostly went to enjoy looking at her :sweat_smile: She’s a half human half leopard with, apparently, good looks. In the actual story, MC is so disgusted he leaves. So, maybe in terms of the story, I have softened it?


Hmm, so you think it would be acceptable if I describe how the MC sees it and he thinks “too bad for him. not my problem.” and then go on to narrate that “he averted his eyes to pretend it wasn’t there and besides, he saw those kinds of things all the time. It was a Sorcerer thing.”

Would that sound like I, as the writer, am ignoring the situation or that I’m narrating a character who is ignoring the situation?


Yes, of course, there’s free-will. Just because a YouTuber said this makeup is awesome you should buy it fans, the fans choose themselves if they want to buy it and support the YouTuber.

But some do, so that’s where influencing needs to watch out.

What if the discrimination is on a bipedal cat or a unicorn or a dragon? Can’t a writer who has never experienced discrimination still write about discrimination itself especially if it’s natural for discrimination to occur if the creature has been rare and isolated from the rest of society? This is discrimination that has nothing to do with humans or religion or sexuality.

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Softer is usually better as far as how many people catch on to what is going on, but too soft to a sensitive type can get other surrounding arguments. Really, there’s no fully appeasing people. Basically, you favor your own conscience on it, where it’s at, now, and most people will be within the range of finding it acceptable.

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Then I say by all means, go for it.

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To me, that sounds more like a writer narrating a character ignoring the situation. I think, though, as the narrator, there is room to discuss exactly the brutality–or subtlety–of any aggression (including microagressions).

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Y’know, regarding discrimination in general, as someone who needed a 300k blocklist just to function on Twitter, who can’t read or listen to major media because the topic’s always about how you should be hanged, has hung around far too many suicide and self-harm threads as of late because stuff always inevitably slips through your filters, and is learning drug synthesis since you don’t trust legislation with prescribing in the future,

I really don’t care, lmao. I can assure you that our experiences are not all the same and I have bigger things to worry about than some unknown writer’s 3am draft. Especially in some fantasy allegory. In fact, I at least appreciate you trying to understand.

Just don’t turn into the media and write propaganda, thanks; I’m so done with being told I should be shot at this point.

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