Soft Boys

This makes a ton of sense as to why this seems so prevalent. Women having and feeling like their sexuality, and gender, are repressed by society so they seek other outlets makes a ton of sense. On top of this, as you pointed out with Supernatural, there’s this ongoing hatred and underrepresentation of good female characters (which is still a major issue). Seeking to fulfill their vilified sexualities through gay male relationships makes a lot of sense, because male sexuality has never been repressed, and there’s no female character to be an object of jealousy/hate (which happens way too much). On top of this, they can project their own feelings of repression and secrecy through the “taboo” side of gay relationships without the same criticism if they were to explore those kinds of feelings with a female character or straight relationship.

I think it’s worth pointing out. We will never be able to solve the problem until we understand it.

Edit: sorry for typos, on mobile

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Yeah, I think that they shouldn’t yap. Not everything will go your way. I think that people shouldn’t fetishize people and they should write proper stories with some substance. It doesn’t have to be super deep, but write people as respectfully as you can.

Yes, a lot of it is. Even Alice Oseman started Heartstopper in 2014, when she was about 18-19. Heartstopper is very popular amongst Gen Z people, especially female teenagers. I wouldn’t say that Heartstopper is dehumanizing/fetishistic but it can be unrealistic. Are you trying to tell me that two horny teenage boys who have feelings for each other are going to save themselves and wait like nuns? Well, any teenage couple, really but in the case of Heartstopper, Charlie and Nick.

But yeah, it seems to have Gen Z [female] teenagers as the majority of is audience and they really defend it hardcore. And it was written by a female (she identifies as ace and goes by she/her/they/them pronouns but I am using ‘she’ in this context because this is what most of the material refers to Oseman as), too, so I can’t say outright that Oseman is pushing heterosexual norms.

You can still see the influence there, even if it wasn’t was Oseman originally attended the audience to be. It just seems like that demographic latches onto Heartstopper for the ‘wholesome UwU-ness’ of the plot. To me, it’s bland and yes, it is inoffensive and Oseman doesn’t seem to do the fetish thing, but I agree with your points and am using Heartstopper as an example.

But some of the stories on Wattpad and A03… no we don’t go there. A lot of that, especially in fandoms is proper fetishization (I see you have discussed SPN below). I see a lot of actual, gay men and people who are a part of LGBT community staunchly against that, and I can’t blame them for being that way.

Imagine if a gay man appropriated and fetishized their identity as a straight woman and wrote degrading fiction about that. There would be outrage. There is a difference between having gay characters and being respectful and fleshing them out rather than just adding them ‘to experiment with’ and having as diversity quota checkbox ticks. That is also annoying.

i remember reading an article once—and this was years ago, i wish i could find it again today—about how this phenomenon goes hand-in-hand with heteronormativity and fandom culture reinforcing misogyny. look at nearly any works of popular fiction from the mid-2000s/2010s. usually, male characters and their (non-romantic) dynamics with other men are fleshed out, given depth, and female characters are relegated to the role of “love interest” regardless of whether they have any real chemistry.

Yeah, I agree. That happened in a lot of the books back then, and in a lot of movies as well. Especially superhero and action movies, in particular. The formulaic ones. The female love interest is nothing more than a trophy at the end for the worthy hero. Having nothing much of substance.

I understand the frustration, from that standpoint. I do.

female characters are not afforded the assumption of having interesting, rich inner lives the way male characters are. to add insult to injury, the female love interests of fan-favorite male characters were usually poorly received by the audience equal parts because of their lazy writing and because of weird, misdirected jealousy. so many female actors of potential love interests in supernatural, for example, received insane amounts of harassment from the fan base, so those pairings didn’t really come to fruition.

Yeah, that’s not right either. In both accounts (female love interests not being fleshed out, and the misdirected hostility towards them). You can’t harass actors who are just doing their jobs. And you also can’t write their characters lazily and the way they weren’t intended to be written goes against the current of the story.

Even in Veronica Mars (I liked the first 3 seasons of that show), I noticed that they would barely let her be without a love interest at all. Even in season three when, in my opinion, Logan was getting too toxic, they probably should have broken it off for good and stayed friends. I never liked that aspect. Of making her reliant on a man, to come to save her. Nothing wrong with her having a love interest, but they should complement each other. Work together, not just be there ‘because people like the ship’ being the only reason. People shouldn’t capitalize on that as the sole reason for pairings.

this resulted in the young women in fandom exploring their attraction to men in the form of gay male pairings, but because of their internalized misogyny and heternormativity they end up essentially reinventing gender roles in the form of yaoi dynamics. they don’t ask “which one is the man and which one is the woman?” anymore, they ask “which one is the uwu so innocent anxious precious smol bean and which one is the strong masculine manly man?”

Yeah, that annoys me. Gender dynamics. I have a character called Alicia, and she is a lesbian. I am writing an unpublished story, and she got annoyed at Max for him asking ‘who the feminine one was’ in their relationship. She said they had no such dynamics, in her case.

Yes, you can be a masculine gay man, and yes you can be softer, but a relationship doesn’t have to be defined by ‘masculine/feminine’ or ‘top/bottom’ stereotypes. It should go by compatibility. Yes, there are cases where people are masculine/feminine and it overlaps but that’s not the case a lot of the time. It shouldn’t the the normal.

There are even a lot of relationships where there are feminine straight men and masculine women with families and they have no issues. Why should it be a big deal for anyone, masculine or feminine? It should not be a marker. Stereotypes should not be benchmarks.

i hope it doesn’t sound too much like i’m engaging in apologia for these women, i’m not—i’m speaking as a non-cisgender, non-heterosexual person here. just rambling and offering some explanation as to why this happens.

No, you’re fine. Your points are good, and thanks for partaking in the discussion.

Yes, but still. They shouldn’t just fetishize gay men, even as characters. That’s what people get offended at, definitely the fetishization. The self-inserts. The whole ‘this is how gay men are’ mentality, based on stereotypes that these women seem to breed.

A majority of lesbian content, for example, are stories written by queer women for queer women. I truly beleive if a majority male audience wrote lesbian content, sexualizing and fetishizing it like they do gay stories, people would have a MUCH bigger issue.

:100: It’s hypocrisy from that point of view.

The major problem on top of all this is that these women actually think theyre allies. Like, no sandra, this is a sexual fantasy of yours. Youre not supporting anyone by spreading these gross stereotypes.

Exactly. :joy: If you were an ally, you wouldn’t write this stuff. You wouldn’t be getting wet to two dudes doing it in any way, shape, or form.

I think some leniancy can be had because a good chunk are (usually) teenagers. A wake-up call should 100% be inserted, but theyre young, dumb, and ignorant. When you have grown women doing this? Yeah, big weird.

Yes, definitely. Teenagers aren’t going to understand the implications in the same way as grown women are. Your brain doesn’t even develop until 25-30, or so I am told.

Grown women writing teenage yaoi erotica is just… ew creepy.

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Man, I’m even further out there than this when it comes to what I think about it.

If you write effeminate housewife porn out of gay males, then I dont trust that you really know the gay men in your life, at all.

I’ve known several gay men that went “men only” after fathering kids–not bi. Frankly, none of them were alike–I mean very much individuals, some of them wouldn’t even fit modern LGBT stances and probably would be a part of the in-fighting that no one would dare write about, and while they defenitely had their effeminate side, there was never a moment where I felt like I was talking to a soft little girl. NEVER. And because they had kids, these aren’t merely walking fetishes but active slim chance in hell of “me having a chance”, which is what these fetishes are supoosed to fill.

I don’t write many gay characters–mostly because if I verbatimed some of the ones I know, I’d be accused of hatred (and I just want to wrire without the fighting)…but they would never fit this genre, and they would be real, fleshed-out individuals. If their arm over your shoulder would feel like safety if they’re written straight, then their arm over your shoulder would still feel like safety instead of an artful display of goods while being totally oblivious while gay.

Hell, I think I hate it more that these males are portrayed like this because the writer sees WOMEN this way and just squeezed a gay male superhero suit out of their toothpaste tube and plonked it over the sucker.

Besides, soft should be written from strenght, both sexes: that means great danes not stepping on chihuahuas. The soft being portrayed ain’t usually soft but is inept. Genuine softness isn’t inept.

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The most common retort to that is:

“It’s fiction, we can do whatever we want! If we want to make them gay and cater to our whim, then fangirl about it, we should be able to do that! We aren’t hurting anyone and we are just having fun! If you don’t like it, then ignore us or just plain accept it.”

I swear I wish slapping people through the internet was physically and realistically possible.

I seriously wish that.

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I’ve seen too many incidents of fangirls actually hurting people, from sending shippers they don’t like CP and Gore images, to the Studio Mir leaking incident, to the needle cookie incident. That retort doesn’t sway me at all.

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Exactly, lol.

E X A C T L Y. Men and women are biologically different, and even the most effeminate ‘cis’ man will not talk like a soft little girl. They are men, not girls. Not females, not ladies. Yeah, of course. They aren’t there for females’ sexual enjoyment and objectification in a baldy written porn. They are real humans with dimensions and lived experiences like characters are meant to be.

Yeah, I agree. Fleshed-out characters are the way to go. Yes, you can add romances and layers of a sexual relationship to stories but don’t fetishize characters for your own enjoyment, and make them shallow/stereotypical with gender dynamics over the top and not expect backlash from the offended group.

:100: Yeah, I agree. It’s misogynistic in a way (like it was mentioned above) to write ‘gay characters’ that way. It’s always annoyed me as well. Imagine if a male writer took male dynamics, and how he saw males and plonked a lesbian skin suit over his characters.

If we can do anything, and write anything … Alright, okay then I can write a bunch of fangirls getting shot by ex-yaoi characters and smothered to death by a giant teddy bear. It’s not hurting anyone, right? It’s not offensive, right?

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Thank you for your comment. Really, thank you for that.
Like for yaoi fans they think they can get away with it if the characters are straight (mostly) or ace, but if the character is of the LGBTQ(possibly oops in spelling) community and someone places them in a hetero relationship, god forbid the ravenous yaoi fandom would attack.

I get that people are going to do what makes them happy, but why are the things that make them happy actually cause harm to others and themselves mentally and/or emotionally?

Is mental and emotional harm not the same as physical in people’s eyes? I mean really.

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